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Is the ESL / EFL Industry Racist?
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Is the ESL/EFL Industry Racist?
Yes
67%
 67%  [ 19 ]
No
7%
 7%  [ 2 ]
It's a Regional Thing
25%
 25%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 28

Author Message
Nonpartin Harenyp



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Is the ESL / EFL Industry Racist? Reply with quote

Hey it's say anything so I'm going to say it. I've just answered a post over in the Asia forum, which got me thinking...is the ESL/EFL industry Racist? I say definitely...being of Asian decent, it's been tough as I'll get out to get work...why??? I don't know, as I speak better English than half of my co-workers, who are as white as rice. They get jobs like they are Longman himself.

So, someone prove me wrong...I'd challenge anyone to prove to me that this industry isn't as racist as they come.

NPHN
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 263
Location: Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are certainly a number of issues regarding racism, which are more notable in some countries than others. Usually, the lowest levels of EFL teaching opportunities, such as some hogwans in Korea, sell their students an image (blonde, blue-eyed, white) rather than good teaching methods. Good teaching opportunities for qualified individuals should be, and often are, color-blind.

It's unfortunate that a few - which is still too many - bad apples spoil your view on the whole lot.

Would it be too much to say that the racism you've seen in employers could be an extension of the society in which they operate?
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Guy Courchesne



Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 263
Location: Mexico

PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an interesting article in the Guardian that may shed some light on perceived racism in teaching jobs abroad.

http://education.guardian.co.uk/tefl/comment/story/0,15090,1597995,00.html
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HenanMike



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Racism(?) in Chinese EFL teaching Reply with quote

The Chinese prefer to hire Caucasians from Canada, U.S.A., G.B., N.Z. and Australia. Only slightly behind would be black people from those countries if they are native speakers. The second tier would be African blacks from countries such as Nigeria and Cameroon and also Filipinos. This group's English is often questionable, to say the least. Where you find overt "racism" is in the hiring of foreign-born Chinese whose English is as good as any Caucasian.

Is this racism? Directed at your own race? The problem seems to be that the students' parents complain if the laowai teacher doesn't look "different". What can you do? The private schools are run to make money and as with any business, the customer is king.
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nwsims



Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Silsbee, TX USA

PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:43 am    Post subject: Discrimnation, I think is a better term. Reply with quote

Racism or discrimination, regardless what you want to call it is as old as the human race.

I used to be an investigator for Dept of Labor in the US. I investigated a business's program that determined if they were biased in the areas of hiring men and women, promotion, salary; discriminated against age, race, religion, women, and veterans. It was all about proving that because they received federal funds they followed the rules and regulations. If they were found not to be following the program then a report was written which they had to follow and correct the descripancies.

Even the Dept of Labor offices decriminated against the inner work force. It is hard to correct. In America discrimination happens all the time, black against black, spanish against spanish, Chinese against Chinese, white against white.

The Chinese like all cultures that are making changes within the inner structure will continue to have racism and discrimination.

Until China has an over abundant teachers that are well educated and can speak English as well as a "native", then you will continue to see discrimination. Of course there are other unknown factors, clothes, height, age, school certificate, and etc.

I am 66 years old and in good health. When I come back to China I will have a difficult time finding a English Conversation Teacher position, if at all. The frame of mind is that a younger person will be able to do a better job than me.
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Kuplungmaster



Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The frame of mind is that a younger person will be able to do a better job than me.



Then, it is time for you to open up your own school (just like I did)
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comerbol



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Bolivia

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Discrimnation, I think is a better term. Reply with quote

nwsims wrote:
Discrimnation = Discrimination

descripancies = discrepancies Question

decriminated = discriminated Question

Until China has an over abundant teachers that are well educated and can speak English as well as a "native", then you will continue to see discrimination. = Until China has an (overabundancy of) teachers ....

I am 66 years old and in good health. When I come back to China I will have a difficult time finding a English Conversation Teacher position, if at all. The frame of mind is that a younger person will be able to do a better job than me.


Dear nwsims

I could not resist the corrections above and I hope you will not take offence Idea (or offense)

I simply wanted to point out that, being a posting in "ESL Jobs Forum", perhaps you should have taken a bit more time, to check your message for errors, before posting it. I know that many recruiters actually visit these forums, hoping to find good teachers. Granted, most recruiters would not necessarily have a good command of English, but I would rather be on the safe side. Wink

I agree wholeheartedly with the content of your message. Discrimination is a very real and unpleasant factor in the ESL "industry", not only in China, but everywhere.
Good luck in your search for a teaching position.
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pauldadd999



Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you talking about, this is an industry like any other? What is different in ESL from the oil industry, or arms industry? Just like any other, we have money mongers controlling everything, employees getting worked over by them, slaving away to make them rich, international conglomerates operating, masquerading experts making a buck too like ESL authors, teachers turned school owners, and course "providers" as you say. But unlike the oil industry, our industry sanctions dicrimination of every kind - race, age, sex, disability, you name it. that's cos all of the jobs are not in the UK, where racism runs rampant, all of you poo-poo'ing the USA, I got news for you. You want real racism, go to the rest of the world. That's where all us poor ESL'ers live! I've been trying to explain this to my newborn son, it ain't easy
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Peter North



Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 3
Location: North Pole

PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can believe it,, I've actually run into discrimination on the basis of hairdo! I have a very big thing about my do, admittedly, and my 80's looking coiffe (I am an 80's freak, that's when I was at my peak in my former career and I'm a sentimental guy), my hair is very Pat Riley/Gordon Gecko - do not every touch it! One of my employers thought I was too concerned with my hair and actually fired me once for not getting to class 10 min. after it started. I was only putting on the final hair spray touches in the men's room, what was the big deal? The school boss, this Korean guy, actually had camera's in the classroom and later tried to show video evidence that I kept combing my hair during pair activity during class. OK I was doing that, but so what? The students were doing the pairwork and what did they need from me? I could have been picking my nose for all they cared they were doing pairwork and there was nothing they needed from me?
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gelynch52



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Tagaytay, The Philippines

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Discrimnation, I think is a better term. Reply with quote

Comerbol, I think that when you undertake to correct someone you should at least not make more errors yourself. There is no such word as "abundancy." The proper phrase should be, "over abundance of" and you should also notice the improper article "a" in front of "English."

[quote = "Comerbol " ]
nwsims wrote:
Discrimnation = Discrimination

descripancies = discrepancies :?:

decriminated = discriminated :?:

Until China has an over abundant teachers that are well educated and can speak English as well as a "native", then you will continue to see discrimination. = Until China has an (overabundancy of) teachers ....

I am 66 years old and in good health. When I come back to China I will have a difficult time finding a English Conversation Teacher position, if at all. The frame of mind is that
Dear nwsims

I could not resist the corrections above and I hope you will not take offence :idea: (or offense)

I simply wanted to point out that, being a posting in "ESL Jobs Forum", perhaps you should have taken a bit more time, to check your message for errors, before posting it. I know that many recruiters actually visit these forums, hoping to find good teachers. Granted, most recruiters would not necessarily have a good command of English, but I would rather be on the safe side. :wink:

I agree wholeheartedly with the content of your message. Discrimination is a very real and unpleasant factor in the ESL "industry", not only in China, but everywhere.
Good luck in your search for a teaching position.
Quote:

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unionjack
Site Admin


Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 491
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:10 pm    Post subject: Title of the Topic Reply with quote

Don't forget the title of the topic, guys.

UJ
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Supergussy



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pauldadd999 wrote >>>>all of the jobs are not in the UK, where racism runs rampant,<<<<

I find this to be an incredibly inaccurate and unsociological statement to make. We all know discrimination exists on a variety of levels and in a variety of forms and places. Making unsupported generalisations about an entire country or race is highly unlikely to solve any of the problems we face as either teachers or human beings. I think the issue is not where is most or least racist, but why a community harbours racism and what can be done to overcome it. Perhaps rather than digressing into a slanging match as to who has the best spelling, or which country is most racist, we would to better as teachers to attempt to explore what, if anything, we can do to overcome the prejudices we have experienced both in the classroom and our communities as a whole.

Angus
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gelynch52



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Tagaytay, The Philippines

PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:45 am    Post subject: Yes, there is racial discrimination in Asia. Reply with quote

Quote:
"Supergussy"]Pauldadd999 wrote >>>>all of the jobs are not in the UK, where racism runs rampant,<<<<


In Korea especially, the parents of the people you are teaching want to see a "white" face (sometimes black) because they just think that a Kyopo (Korean American) just can't possibly speak proper English. In fact, in too many cases, the so-called ESL teachers can't speak or write English even passably well. Evil or Very Mad What follows is the message I was responding to. Jerry Lynch


Quote:
I find this to be an incredibly inaccurate and unsociological statement to make. We all know discrimination exists on a variety of levels and in a variety of forms and places. Making unsupported generalisations about an entire country or race is highly unlikely to solve any of the problems we face as either teachers or human beings. I think the issue is not where is most or least racist, but why a community harbours racism and what can be done to overcome it. Perhaps rather than digressing into a slanging match as to who has the best spelling, or which country is most racist, we would to better as teachers to attempt to explore what, if anything, we can do to overcome the prejudices we have experienced both in the classroom and our communities as a whole.

Angus

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johnson.camel



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Oman

PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Discrimnation, I think is a better term. Reply with quote

nwsims wrote:

I am 66 years old and in good health. When I come back to China I will have a difficult time finding a English Conversation Teacher position, if at all. The frame of mind is that a younger person will be able to do a better job than me.


I've had no problem getting a job and I'm now in my 70s, I've worked in S. Korea, Poland, Germany, now I'm about to get a job in China. I mean, I do send a ton of applications, spend about 100 hrs on average researching a country and sending out resumes. One thing I can also recommend - go to your employer. I once flew over to an interview in Poland while I was working in Korea, then flew back. It was over the weekend, I got Friday off to do this which wasn't a problem

Also, I'd recommend growing a beard. They like Chuck Norris a lot in China and Korea so that can get you a leg up on the young 'uns
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Thomas Goodnight



Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I find this to be an incredibly inaccurate and unsociological statement to make. We all know discrimination exists on a variety of levels and in a variety of forms and places. Making unsupported generalisations about an entire country or race is highly unlikely to solve any of the problems we face as either teachers or human beings. I think the issue is not where is most or least racist, but why a community harbours racism and what can be done to overcome it. Perhaps rather than digressing into a slanging match as to who has the best spelling, or which country is most racist, we would to better as teachers to attempt to explore what, if anything, we can do to overcome the prejudices we have experienced both in the classroom and our communities as a whole.


Hey Supergussy...your'e wrong. The industry is racist. Of course it's a generalization...but it's a good and accurate one.

That whole let's work together as teachers to change this...great idea...a little tree-huggerish though. I mean sometimes you have to actually live in the reality of the real world and leave the granola bars and birckenstocks outside the classroom (which as a matter of fact all good teachers should do...as it's highly unprofessional to both eat in class and wear sandals).

Quote:
Also, I'd recommend growing a beard. They like Chuck Norris a lot in China and Korea so that can get you a leg up on the young 'uns


Right on Johnson...beards are long overdue for a comeback...I'm growing one right now...

Goodnight
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